Where the Creativity of Business Meets Art
Sixth Interview: Communication × Creativity (Part 1)
28 June 2024
Okuda: Today, we are joined by Dr. Mari Yoshitaka, a leading expert in environmental finance in Japan. Dr. Yoshitaka is also the one who introduced Ms. Ayako Tanaka to me. I look forward to an open and candid discussion today. Let’s get started.
I decided that I needed to become self-reliant so that I could contribute my awareness of issues to society (Yoshitaka)
Tanaka: Did you start your career at a financial company? I'm also curious about how you took the first step, given that you are one of the leading experts in environmental finance. I assume you had to navigate uncharted territory to pave the way.
Yoshitaka: Yes, that's right. I studied international law at university, and I was fairly interested in social issues. At that time, though, the perspective of gender equality was not what it is today, so I felt that I would not be given the same employment opportunities as men, even with a university degree. That's why I decided that I needed to become self-reliant—so that I could contribute my awareness of issues to society. I started out at an IT venture company, but after a few years, the company ran into problems, so I was forced to change jobs. That’s when I went to work at the Japanese office of a foreign financial institution. There, I achieved a level of financial independence and finally felt capable of contributing to society when I saw a need. I was taking an English course at New York University (NYU) to improve my language skills when I saw a brochure for a course called “Business and the Environment.” It felt like a perfect fit, and I remember thinking it was exactly what I'd been looking for.
Tanaka: You went to New York after changing companies. Had you always been interested in working abroad?
Yoshitaka: My parents were civil servants, so I grew up in a family where traveling abroad was only something you did for your honeymoon. So, I never really had much interest in going to another country. I rigorously honed my computer skills in my first job at the IT company. Later, when I joined a foreign financial institution and was broadening my horizons, I had the opportunity to go to the headquarters in New York. I couldn't speak English at the time, though, so I really appreciated the opportunity. I just wanted to become self-reliant. I had no intention of working abroad or becoming a career woman.
Okuda: But your strong desire for self-reliance must have driven you to absorb a great deal of knowledge at your previous IT company.
Yoshitaka: Yes, that's right. I also tried my hand at flower arrangement and kept searching for what I wanted to do with my life. I still remember the strong admiration I had for my classmates at my girls' school who had clear goals for themselves from a young age. For example, some wanted to do a job where they spoke English, and others wanted to go into medicine.
Being a pioneer can really feel like a tough and challenging path (Tanaka)
Tanaka: So, you said you found what you wanted to do by taking an English course at NYU.
Yoshitaka: It was truly shocking. The instructor of the course was a former Citibank credit card specialist who had started his own environmental finance consulting firm. He brought in people working in environmental business around New York as guest lecturers in an omnibus-style format. It was 1992, so this kind of business perspective was virtually nonexistent in Japan. At the time, the Vice President of the U.S. was Al Gore, a prominent Democrat who later raised awareness about global warming through his documentary, An Inconvenient Truth. There was clearly more concern about green initiatives and climate change than there is today. The Earth Summit was held in Brazil in 1992, and people around the world began to talk about sustainable development and balancing the environment and the economy. This was a time when environmental issues were even raised at the International Monetary Fund (IMF) Annual Meetings, and the World Bank began to establish principles for lending that included environmental considerations. Throughout the course, we saw financial institutions start getting involved in environmental issues.
Tanaka: So you found what you wanted to do in New York and launched an environmental business there?
Yoshitaka: I gathered a lot of information while stationed in New York, but my preparations were mainly for starting something after I returned to Tokyo.
Tanaka: How was Japan when you returned to start your environmental business?
Yoshitaka: There was no such term as “environmental business.” I had knowledge of business and finance but not of the environment, so I decided to start there. It wasn’t until 2000, after I joined what is now the Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group, that I was able to actually start doing it as a job.
Tanaka: As with anything, I imagine being a pioneer can really feel like a tough and challenging path.
Yoshitaka: Yes, that's right. I went to graduate school to specialize, but two years of study wasn’t enough to give me the expertise needed to convince people at financial institutions. At graduate school, I wondered whether it would actually turn into a job. During my studies, I often heard the term “emissions trading.” I thought, "If that’s the case, maybe I can use my expertise in finance to solve social issues.” When I returned to Japan, no one knew anything about emissions trading, so I went to an environmental organization as part of my recruiting activities. They were skeptical. They told me that the only thing financial institutions were interested in was making money and didn’t take it seriously. In other words, in the eyes of those who were working hard on environmental issues at the time, financial institutions were evil organizations playing money games (laughs).
We have no problem putting a price on tangible items, but when it comes to something intangible like air, we seem to struggle with the idea at first. (Okuda)
Okuda: It’s only relatively recently that business and the environment have become linked. The word “environmental problem” brings to mind global warming or climate change arising from the increase in CO2, but the environmental problems I heard about as a child were more traditional pollution problems like the destruction of the natural environment and air pollution. That's where the interest in the environment comes from in Japan, isn't it?
Consequently, corporate activities such as constructing factories that release pollutants and contaminate the air and water all lead to the destruction of nature. And since it’s the financial institutions that lend money to those companies, both the companies and the financial institutions are “evil” from the perspective of those who want to protect the environment. I guess it’s that kind of thinking that leads to the perceptions I mentioned earlier.
Yoshitaka: Yes, that's right. Not so much in New York, but in Japan, financial institutions often weren’t viewed so favorably by the corporate world. There were tremendous profits to be made in speculative money games, much like what we saw during the bubble economy. From the point of view of a company that strives daily to manage costs and produce goods, financial institutions only seemed to provide money when it was convenient for them and then withdraw support when things got tough, all without producing anything.
Okuda: Many people who wanted to protect the environment initially resisted the idea of turning these serious social issues into a money game to find solutions, as they believed everyone should be earnestly working towards resolving them.
Yoshitaka: It really was something else. There was also another reason behind my interest in these things. It was a novel by Dr. Hideo Itokawa entitled Case D: The Invisible Flood. It’s about major food and oil companies colluding to control the world by manipulating information and influencing the United Nations to manufacture food crises and population problems. There’s a part about major food companies buying crops from farmers at low prices, falsifying population growth data to change the market, with financial institutions playing a complicit role. I think what you said relates to the current concern about how the economy can move in ways that don't match the actual situation.
Okuda: I think there was a similar period in music and art, which is Ms. Tanaka’s domain. Beethoven composed his music surrounded by his patrons and performed it in the court. There was a time when music was also a hobby of the masses, so patrons who happened to enjoy it paid for it, and as a result, the masses were able to listen without having to pay. In Brahms' day, however, someone decided to make a business out of sheet music. This is not dissimilar to putting money on emission credits and transforming it into a business. Music gradually became a business as people started to publish and sell sheet music, something no one had thought of before. I imagine that there was considerable criticism about turning art into something driven by money. But as a result, anyone can look at a score and play the music, the conductor can interpret it in their own way to broaden the range of performances of the same piece, and the listeners can enjoy listening to the different performances of different pieces. The more sheet music a composer sells, the more money they can make, and the more money they make, the better the model becomes, creating a cycle that encourages writing better music. We have no problem putting a price on tangible items, but when it comes to something intangible like air, we seem to struggle with the concept at first.
I thought it made sense for everyone to join forces and create a market to tackle the many issues that taxes alone couldn't address (Yoshitaka)
Yoshitaka: You’re absolutely right. We have to measure the value of intangible things because it's only through this measurement that they gain monetary value. Emission credits quantify the value of CO2, creating an economically viable market. However, for those who produce goods daily or want to protect the environment, this approach can seem wrong. That's what you were getting at, right? I started my work in emission credits in developing countries. For example, when biomass and other power generation projects are promoted in developing countries, government assistance from developed countries is included as ODA, but the recipients often do not continue their efforts afterward. Emission credits are always worth the effort, though, just as continuing to generate electricity and lowering CO2 translates into monetary value. I think the same goes for music. If there is no money from increasing the value, no one will make the effort.
Tanaka: I think one of the reasons for resistance to finance is image. The environment is clean and good, art is beautiful and unblemished, while finance and money have the opposite image. Companies build factories because there is a demand for them, and the general public uses the goods that are made, so it’s mutually beneficial. Strangely enough, though, the users are sometimes unaware of the benefits they themselves are receiving.
Okuda: In Japan, for example, thermal power plants were built in line with rapid economic growth in a relatively small area of the country. Sulfur oxide (SOx) and nitrous oxide (NOx) are inevitably emitted as a result of combustion at those plants. This is actually the cause of air pollution, which in turn causes people to suffer from asthma and other pollution-related diseases. In Japan, from the mid-1960s to the early 1980s, the government focused its efforts on measures to deal with this problem. As a result, SOx and NOx emissions are now almost nonexistent. The first round of environmental problems ended there. However, the issue of global warming due to CO2 emissions is harder for people to perceive physically. And since CO2 is invisible, it's also unclear who’s responsible for emitting it. That's why initiatives like the ones you are working on are crucial. If we leave CO2 emissions unchecked, they will harm the planet over time, making it unsustainable for both humans and other life forms. We need to visualize the value of not emitting CO2, and there's a growing movement to assign a monetary value.
Yoshitaka: That’s truer than ever. In capitalism, money is needed for anything we do, yet in Japan, people tend to avoid talking about it. Overseas, markets are created for value. For example, in the US, the SOx and NOx emissions trading markets were established before the one for CO2. To me, it made sense for everyone to join forces and create a market to tackle the many issues that taxes alone couldn't address. For example, SOx and NOx were already causing pollution, but at the time, CO2 was still at a stage where it could have been prevented with some effort. It was even said that climate change was the only preventable environmental problem, even though it has now become such a significant issue. I thought it was crucial to direct money towards the issue quickly, but the fact that CO2 is invisible and imperceptible and that people tend to discount distant risks, made it challenging.
I believe that young people are very interested in this topic. I feel like they are thinking about what society might look like 30 years from now. (Yoshitaka)
Tanaka: What do you think of the current situation, having been involved since 1992?
Yoshitaka: I think it’s a monumental shift that financial institutions are now mentioning climate change issues to such an extent. I’m currently teaching a class at Keio University, and about one-fifth of my students are interested in ESG. In the past, the general public would not have known about the connection between financial institutions and environmental issues. It really feels like a different time.
Okuda: Do you feel that this change was good?
Yoshitaka: I think it’s good that we are finally taking a step in the right direction. But how widespread is this interest among the general public? I think even in the Japanese financial institutions themselves, only a few top executives are thinking about it, and the general public is still largely unaware. The data on this is actually available, and it’s proven that Japanese people are less aware of climate change than their Western counterparts.
Tanaka: You’ve given lectures at various companies. Do you find that younger people respond better?
Yoshitaka: In Tokyo, where information is concentrated, I feel that even mid-sized companies are becoming quite sensitive to environmental issues. There seems to be a difference in mindset in rural areas, where there are more immediate issues. However, I believe that young people are listening with great interest. Since it’s their future, I feel like they are thinking about what society will look like 30 years from now.
Tanaka: What was the first project where you saw tangible results?
Yoshitaka: A rice husk power generation project in Cambodia. The Japanese government paid 200 million yen up front for the emission credits, and a power plant was built with that money. The energy powered the rice mill, making life more convenient for the locals.
Tanaka: Is that rice mill still in operation?
Yoshitaka: Unfortunately, the rice milling business came to a halt because the rice could no longer be sold in Europe due to the COVID-19 pandemic. Despite a variety of aid, so many things can—and do—happen. There are times when there’s nothing more you can do. What about your project with the National Youth Orchestra of Argentina, Ms. Tanaka?
Tanaka: It’s going slowly but surely. I haven’t been able to visit in person, but we have meetings once a week. When the project was launched, it was a private project, but now that the Argentine government is on board, things have gotten easier. It has made me realize how difficult it is to bring stability to a project.
Yoshitaka: A lot of things can happen when you’re building a project or plant.
(To be continued)

Mari Yoshitaka
Fellow (Sustainability), Mitsubishi UFJ Research and Consulting
Master of Science, Graduate School of Environment and Sustainability (now), University of Michigan, USA, Graduate School of Media and Governance, Keio University Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.). Visiting professor at the University of Tokyo's College of Arts and Science.
After working for an IT company, a US investment bank, and the Environmental Technology Department of the International Finance Corporation (IFC) of the World Bank Group, Yoshitaka launched the Clean Energy Finance Department at Mitsubishi UFJ Morgan Stanley Securities in 2000. She has been in her current position since May 2020, concurrently serving in MUFG Bank and Mitsubishi UFJ Morgan Stanley Securities.Yoshitaka is also a member of various national councils.

Ayako Tanaka
Soprano singer
President, Japan Association for Music Education Program
At the age of 18, Tanaka traveled to Vienna alone to study. At 22, she made her debut at the Stadttheater Bern in Switzerland, becoming the youngest soloist ever in the theater and the first Japanese person to perform there. Since then, she has performed in Vienna, London, Paris, Buenos Aires, and many other cities worldwide. Tanaka won “Best World Premiere Piece” by the Argentine Music Critic Association for her performance of Esteban Benzecry's “The 5 Cycle Songs for Coloratura Soprano and Orchestra" in Buenos Aires. The album received five stars from the BBC Music Magazine, the world's best-selling classical music magazine.
Tanaka is also engaged in giving back to society through activities such as the SCL International Youth Music Festival held in Vienna with the support of UNESCO and the Austrian government to assist young performers, as well as the National Youth Orchestra of Argentina, which was established with the support of the Argentine government to provide education to young people of various backgrounds and family situations through music.
Tanaka was named one of Newsweek's "100 Most Respected Japanese in the World" in 2019. She sang the Japanese national anthem on October 22 at the opening ceremony of the SMBC Nippon Series 2022. Born in Kyoto, Tanaka lives and works in Vienna.
RELATED STORIES

Where the Creativity of Business Meets Art Sixth Interview: Communication × Creativity (Part 2)
Today, we are joined by Dr. Mari Yoshitaka, a leading expert in environmental finance in Japan. Dr.

Where the Creativity of Business Meets Art Fifth Interview: Passion x Creativity (Part 1)
Today, we have the pleasure of hosting Mr. Shintaro Nakayama, representative of Life as Caravan.

Where the Creativity of Business Meets Art Fifth Interview: Passion x Creativity (Part 2)
Today, we have the pleasure of hosting Mr. Shintaro Nakayama, representative of Life as Caravan.